Visual Novels

[Кал]

(пренасям и събирам на едно място)

Визуалните романи са нещото, което открадна сърцето ми през изтеклата една година (и заради което ще ми е малко трудно да се върна към "невизуалните" книги-игри ).

Без много-много да се обяснявам - давам пример за проект, правен в продължение на няколко години от международна доброволческа формация:

Katawa Shoujo

Тая година чакаме завършеното нещо. Можете да пробвате Act 1 - минимум 3 часа четене-играене е.

(А ако някой пробва и сподели впечатления - много драго ще ми е...)

Всъщност - някой тук чел ли е визуални романи? Препоръки?

(А дали някой ден и ние ще почнем да ги правим? *усмих*)

* * *

Един голям дял по същност са си свалки. (Със или без опъване. )

Katawa Shoujo също е такава (със или без опъване... ще видим ) - но не това ми е интересното. Впечатлява ме деликатността и разбирането (направо: съпреживяване), с което авторите са подходили към хората с физически недъзи.

Освен това съм пристрастен към източното изразяване на емоция - японци и корейци, анооо...

* * *

Личен фаворит:

Saya no Uta

Страхотна Лъвкрафтова история и тотален "вынос мозга", както казват руснаците.
Не е особено интерактивна /имаш избор на точно две места/, но определено си заслужава. Има и онождане в разумни дози, разбира се .

* * *

И за да не оставим у съформниците впечатление, че в тия романи онождането (пре)обладава - една от най-усуканите, хем трилърни, хем топли истории:

Ever 17: Out of Infinity

Без грам голота.

(Което, имайки предвид колко красиво рисуват тия хора, си е срамота...)

И адски, адски трудна за достигане до истинския финал...

* * *

От този жанр харесвам най-много:
Rosario + Vampire: Tanabata's Miss Yokai Academy
Rosario + Vampire Capu2: The Rhapsody of Love and Dreams
Sekirei: Mirai Kara no Okurimono
Higurashi When They Cry
Animamundi: Dark Alchemist

Обожавам ги!

* * *

Братя по пристрастия, направо беля си взех с тая тема. Еле какъв списък за наваксване ми създадохте...

Пък ако някой, който в момента само стеснително обикаля постингите ни, иска да се тества с нещо по-кратичко (но пак забавно):

Daemonophilia

НБ! 16+! :helleee

И още едно - съвсем различно:

Brass Restoration

Дълго и музикантско, и емоционално изстъргващо.

(О! И в един от възможните финали се явява нашата мила родина... няма майтап...)

[Nameless]

Прави си сейфчета на всяко решение (не са толкоз много ;). И връщай,
ако те пребият (емоционално или буквално :D) някъде.

И другото важно при visual novels:

Като си направиш save при всеки избор – после се връщаш и пробваш
другите маршрути. Като ползваш опцията Skip already read text – така
веднага ще видиш, като попаднеш на нещо ново. (Тогава програмата
престава да skip-ва.)

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Разговорник

Или: Как да правите по-малко физиономии (и повече смисъл), като попаднете в компания на отаку

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Отказвам се от Fate/Stay Night. Не мога повече.

Това е най-overwritten, излишно раздута (или ужасно преведена) история, на която съм имал несгодата да попадна. Да, героите имат потенциал. И да, възхищавам се (почти) на търпението, с което се развиват образите им, особено Saber. И да, забавлявах се на съветите в Tiger Dojo, след като гиберясаш по поредния (увлекателно садистичен) начин. Обаче... от 20 изчетени часа две трети да съм ги минавал с пръст върху бутона Forward 1 min... не. И не. И не.

(Поне музиката да ставаше...)

Ако има някой мегафен на играта, нека сподели с какво го е задържала.

P.S. Тя гъмжала от мегафенове...

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Quartett е най-стилният VN, който съм чел досега, същински интерактивен комикс с прекрасен рисунък и най-щедрото съотношение „брой уникални илюстрации към дължина на историята“. Освен това има най-яркия саундтрак, особено струнните инструментали. И още: еро-сцените му почти не отвращават.

Слабите му страни са историите – след обещаващо начало (брех, училище за музиканти! брех, конкурс за струнни квартети!) не достигат дълбочина; и образите – след множество обещаващи надзъртания в миналото им, и те така.

Brass Restoration остава ненадминат.

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Снощи, пак по препоръка на тайфата около Katawa Shoujo, изчетох don't take it personally, babe, it just ain't your story.

Като изключим това, че главният герой е най-мухлявият и безличен тип в историята на VN (38-годишен учител с два развода зад гърба си... поне някаква дълбочина трябваше да е извлякъл); и че музиката просто я спрете, от самото начало (не, няма да се оправи), беше интересно:

– да се окажеш в ситуация, където хем слушаш какво си говорят всички пред очите ти, хем можеш да надзърташ в „тайните“ им Фейсбукоподобни кореспонденции (и да играеш на „открийте приликите“)

– да видиш как се развиват отношенията между двойки с предпочитание към собствения пол (and how one comes out of the closet in the first place)

– да си провериш знанията по otaku-ese и 4chan-ese (forced meme is forced, bro)

– да си зададеш въпроса So who needs all this privacy?

И ми даде една идея за структурата на Aurelion: the Visual Novel...

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Пак по препоръка на горната тайфа, от доста време мъча Sekien no Inganock (What a Beautiful People). Даже успях да я преполовя... но днес прекратявам мъченето.

Атмосферата ѝ е очарователна странна... но и повтаряемо подтискаща. Още по-странни са създанията, които населяват катастрофиралия ѝ свят. Въпреки че обикновено я етикетират като стиймпънк, за мен историята си е new wierd, в най-чист вид.

Основното ми препъване беше в темпото на сюжета – твъъъъърде меланхолично; и в повтаряемостта. Когато за втори път ми кажат, че Creatures cannot be destroyed by humans. But I am not human, това е художествен похват; когато ми го кажат за седми път, със съвсем същите думи, е творческо безсилие.

Щеше ми се да видя ще избуи ли любовта между Ати и Ги в тоя обречен град... но избуялата ми досада се оказа по-силна. *въздъх*

Сега пробвам и Shikkoku no Sharnoth (What a Beautiful Tomorrow) – но надали ще бъда така търпелив...

(Там ми прави хубаво впечатление, че преводачите са се постарали да възпроизведат солиден викториански английски. Веднъж даже посегнах към речниците. )

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Shikkoku no Sharnoth (What a Beautiful Tomorrow) успя да ме задържи до финала си. И да ми напомни – о, ирония! – колко невнимателен читател мога да бъда.

(Покрай това напомняне дойде и едно осъзнаване: че добрият визуален роман е, преди всичко, добър роман. А доброто озвучаване, саундтрак и графика просто го правят по-добър роман. Ако подхождам към него като към някакво леко четиво, което през цялото време ще ме води за ръчичка и накрая ще ми изясни в прав текст всичко, дето е имало риск да го изтърва... значи имам проблем. Читателски.)

Най-големите му плюсове бяха:

+ Лавината от препратки към англоезичната литература и европейската история в началото на миналия век. (Честно, нямаше да се сетя, че пълното име на Howard Phillips е H.P. Lovecraft. А за Adam Weishaupt даже не бях чувал.)

+ Непредсказуемият сюжет. Това е станало запазена марка на японските истории, но в голяма част от времето тук аз едва успявах да следя какво се случва в момента, камо ли да провиждам напред.

+ Философският въпрос-„рамка“. Няма да го издам, той е страховит спойлър. Само ще подскажа, че още подзаглавието го навира в очите ни.

+ И – о, то било възможно! – добрият вкус в рисуването на еро-сцените. (Макар самото им съдържание да си съперничи по фрустрация и болезненост с всичко останало в жанра. Разликата е, че тук фрустрацията се случва най-вече на ниво психика.) Сигурно това, че Sakurai Hikaru е жена, си е казало думата.

Основният минус, както и в Sekien no Ignanock, беше повтаряемостта. Вижте предния пост.

А най-голямата печалба (за мене) и загуба (за света, който иска да си общува с мене) беше натъкването ми на ей този списък. Рядко съм срещал преводач/читател на VN, чиито sensibilities толкова да импонират на моите.

И вече съм си свалил CROSS†CHANNEL.

[Кал]

Doki Doki Literature Club

Хъхъхъ... изборът с трите имена, при който мишката автоматично ме
дърпа към Моника, е гениално програмно решение. Изобщо, безкрайно ти
благодаря за идеите, които ми дава тоя визуален роман.

(За кошмарите не искаш да ти благодаря. нАлИ Не иСКАш?!1

Не знам да казвам ли още нещо за Doki Doki. От една страна, гледам, че романът е събрал фурорна агитка; от друга, всичко, което го прави интересен, влиза в територията на спойлърите. И наистина имам предвид „всичко“ – персонажите в началната/нормалната история са доста банални, музиката и графиката сами по себе си също. Това, което ме впечатли, бяха:

1) някои от стихотворенията – висока класа; и добре че героините помагаха с инструменти за тълкуването им: мисля, че тук средностатистическият читател на VN има какво да научи;

2) привидно безобидни реплички, които, прочетени още веднъж/под друг ъгъл, стават безумно небезобидни. Това пак е трик от висшия пилотаж в литературата. Въобще, като писател, Dan Salvato заслужи шапката ми.

Но самият роман не заслужи трайната ми любов (респективно отделна тема в тоя подфорум), понеже като съдържание не навлиза никъде, където вече да не съм бил; не промени нищо дълбинно у мене. Нещо като блестящо (до ослепяване) илюзионистко представление, което не прониква отвъд аналитичния пласт на мозъка ни.

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Bringing VN to Goodreads:

Adding visual novels (and interactive fiction) to Goodreads

Hello all!

Since we already have both gamebooks (in terms of book structure) and ebooks (in terms of format), it seems logical to also allow the adding of visual novels (VN). Some popular examples are Fate/Stay Night, Katawa Shoujo, Clannad, etc.

In most cases, visual novels rely largely on their textual stories for achieving artistic impact; in fact, some of them have more text than most ordinary novels (as can be seen here), and they definitely have more text than the vast majority of comic books/graphic novels, which are already allowed on Goodreads. I remember spending 5 nights in a row reading through The Devil on G-String, a feat I haven't pulled even with LotR or the last Harry Potter books.

If we agree to allow listing VN here, one possible solution is to add "Visual Novel" to the options in the Format field that GR Librarians see when editing a book.

Any thoughts?

Thank you, and have an inspiring 2018!

P.S. A similar case can be made for interactive fiction. In all these cases, we're talking about works of art in which reading is a crucial part of the experience.

Elizabeth, thank you for the link! I should immediately point out that "video games" is not a meaningful definition of visual novels. They're called "novels" because they're exactly that: text (often massive amounts of it--say, longer than LotR) with occasional choices (as in gamebooks/Choose Your Own Adventure books), drawings of the characters/backgrounds (similar to comic books), and a soundtrack fitting the mood of the scene (which some audiobooks have too). Please note that Goodreads recognizes all of gamebooks, comic books/graphic novels, and audiobooks as "books."

To get an idea of a typical visual novel, watch e.g. this recording of the beginning of Katawa Shoujo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQPHLxN ... wqSPfM_xhf

Miriam, given the amount of reading involved, would you still call it more similar to a game than a book?

(...) To approach the discussion from another angle: When I start a visual novel, I refer to the process as "reading" rather than "playing."

Spoiler

(At the same time, as a linguist, I'm aware that neither of these verbs fully captures the evolving nature of this artistic medium. Perhaps we need a new verb to describe our interaction with it.)

Goodreads is a site dedicated to, well, good (and not so good) reads. Since I experience visual novels as, first and foremost, reads, I'd like to be able to list them here, along with all my other reads.

[Кал]

Борбата продължава:

Miriam and Bitchie, why would you say "game not book"? What makes them so? For the sake of symmetry, please give us arguments to support your opinions. Bitchie says "there's a reason": please show us that reason. Right now, you're using the status quo as your main argument; however, this is the Goodreads forum for suggestions, and a suggestion is usually something new that is meant to change the status quo or at least question it.

Ellie, I'd like to be able to list the <i>novels</i> I've read; I haven't said anything about IKEA manuals.

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... продължава:

As I already said, defining a VN as a "video game" is misleading: such a definition is not informative enough to give you an idea about what a visual novel really is. This is why I emphasized another part of that same Wikipedia article: "they resemble mixed-media novels." The same article later explains, "Typically the majority of player interaction is limited to clicking to keep the text, graphics and sound moving [...], while making narrative choices along the way."

How is this different from an electronic gamebook/Choose Your Own Adventure book? You read a gamebook by--to quote straight from your post--"making choices." Gamebooks have been present on Goodreads for a long time: e.g. The Walls of Spyte or To Be or Not To Be: A Chooseable-Path Adventure. What is the logic of allowing gamebooks here but prohibiting visual novels?

[Кал]

... не спира:

Dannie, thank you once again!

I'm focusing on your responses because they're the most detailed and contain the greatest number of arguments; I kindly ask everyone else not to feel ignored.

I'm also responding to specific points in them while omitting others (such as the novelistic character of certain films) because I'm trying to keep the discussion more focused. (And don't have more time. :)

The "distribution format" that you mention seems to me a market consideration rather than an intrinsic feature of a work of art. Consider Hwarang & Kumiho. The link points to a free-to-download app on the Google Store. The developer calls it both a gamebook (i.e. "book") and an RPG (i.e. "game"). My claim is this is done for marketing purposes: it makes Hwarang & Kumiho attractive to both readers and gamers. (Or maybe neither? :) However, it does not change the fact that Hwarang & Kumiho takes a traditional gamebook (the Bulgarian original can be freely downloaded as PDF here) and converts it to an electronic format, adding full-color graphics and background music. The app contains the exactly same text as the original gamebook. Is the result more of a "book" or more of a "game"? (Please give Hwarang & Kumiho a try before you answer. I apologize for the quality of the translation.)

I think our main bone of contention stems from how we look at the "book/game" definition. Is it "either/or"--"this is a game, therefore it's not a book" (similar to most anybody's arguments above)? Or is it a spectrum--"this contains more elements of a book than of a game" (which is basically my point)? When I gave the Katawa Shoujo example (how many people went and read it?), this is exactly what I wanted everyone to consider. The Wikipedia article says it too: "Typically the majority of player interaction is limited to clicking to keep the text, graphics and sound moving." Is this limited amount of interaction enough to call it a "game" and nothing else?

Please also note that there's a variety of visual novels called kinetic novels which contain no choices at all. You just keep clicking to read the story. Would you say that a kinetic novel is a "game" too? Then, would you prevent someone from adding it as a "book" on Goodreads?

My argument here is not that we should include role-playing games as a whole--even such text-heavy games as FF VII or Planescape: Torment. On the "game<->book" spectrum, I think the majority of them have more elements of a game (battle mechanics, free movement in space, etc.) than of a book, so they don't belong on Goodreads. My argument is that we should include works of art that have more elements of a book than of a game (or any other art form)--as is the case with the vast majority of visual novels.

We've already done it with comic books--which someone may argue shouldn't be here either, because they contain more visual art than text; we spend more time looking at the pictures than reading the speech bubbles and captions. (And yes, the ratio of unique text to unique visual art in Katawa Shoujo is far greater than that in Watchmen. I'm emphasizing "unique": Katawa Shoujo contains some 100 background images and maybe 200 "sprites" (images of the characters in the story), which get reused over and over again, as opposed to nearly 500,000 words of text--wow, that's actually more than Lord of the Rings! Compare that to the number of different images, respectively words in Watchmen.) Should we then exclude comic books too?

I believe Goodreads can only win from being more inclusive in such "gray" areas. As an avid reader, the format of what I read doesn't matter to me; the content and quality does. I've been amazed by the content and, yes, the literary quality of certain visual novels, so I'd like to be able to discuss them here along with my other favorite literature. Such as Cross†Channel, with its postmodernist, convoluted structure and its host of textual allusions and references and possible layers of interpretation.

You don't trust me? Then read this 160,000-word monograph on Cross†Channel. ;)

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What we have come to ....

Please answer these very specific questions:

1. Is a kinetic novel a "book"? A "game"? Or something else? Why?

2. What differences, if any, exist between a kinetic novel and an electronic comic book? Do you think there're sufficient differences to treat the electronic comic book as a "book" and the kinetic novel as something else? Why?

and

The only reason why I keep banging my head against the wall :/// is my hope to hear arguments with more, erm, arguments in them.

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Yada yada yada...

(...) I also disagree that adding a new type in the Format field--i.e. "Visual Novel," as per my original suggestion--would burden the GR database. It's just one more item in a dropdown menu. (Now, adding all those Kindle, Nook and general "ebook" formats was what I would call a questionable decision. A simple "ebook" would have fitted all of them.)

Nor do you have to do, software-wise, anything specific about the description of the various creators involved; you'd just write "Director" or "Composer" instead of "Illustrator" or "Narrator" in the Role field. Also, most VN are done by small teams--check vndb.org for yourself. Are a dozen names in the Author fields too many? Really? I can give you thousands of more examples of book anthologies that require more than 50 fields to properly list all their contributors. Maybe we should get rid of them too, to lighten the load on the GR database?

Ah, let's get to the heart of the matter:

Bitchie, does it really hurt to make a list of similarities and differences between a kinetic novel and an electronic comic book? Rather than dump textwalls of definitions (and spend all that time bolding words--of course, the words that reinforce your preconceptions rather than those that may challenge them)?

Do you guys need my help? It's not that complicated, I promise. Start by drawing a two-column table, with "kinetic novel" in Column A and "electronic comic book" in Column B ....

P.S. Trust me, I've "fiddled around" with a lot more than "a few" visual novels, and I never once had to play instruments (not even fiddle ;), solve puzzles or do dance moves. I simply had to read. And read. And read. Their stories/plots also tended to stay the same.

How about you?

You're the one with the massive hard on for visual/kinetic novels being listed on GR, so how about instead of expecting us to figure out what you obviously seem to already know, why don't you go ahead an explain it. In really simple terms, since we're all apparently too dumb to get it.

Because I trust in your capacity for independent thought. And I'm not being sarcastic now. We're all readers here, right?

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Dear Goodreads stuff:

I kindly ask that you revoke my Librarian status on Goodreads. I was deeply disappointed by the way a thread in another group was locked recently, so I no longer wish to contribute as a librarian here.

(...)

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Hi Kalin,
Thank you for reaching out about this. I'm very sorry for your negative experience in the Feedback Group. We made the decision to close the thread based on an established librarian policy and the devolving tone of the discussion, but I'd be happy to hear any further feedback you have on the handling of that thread.

We'd love for you to continue on as a librarian but understand if you are certain of your decision. Please confirm if you'd like us to remove your librarian status, and I'll be happy to take care of that for you.

Best,
Emily

--
Emily Fortner
Goodreads Community Manager

Thank you for your prompt and supportive response, Emily! I really appreciate it.

Since I'm very tired now (it's the end of the day here), may I get back to you tomorrow? This will also give me a chance to sleep over the situation.

Warm regards,
Kalin

Hi Kalin,
Absolutely-- no rush. We won't make any changes until we've heard from you.

Thanks again for your feedback.

Hello again, Emily!

I did sleep over the situation :), and here's what I came up with:

I would deeply appreciate if you can leave the Visual Novels topic (https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/19163292 ) unlocked--as you said you would when you first took part in it (https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/19 ... _176103963 ). Then, I found your decision fair: you stated GR's position on the matter but left us to carry on with the discussion. And from that discussion, I've been learning useful things (such as the adaptation of _Meanwhile_ in Visual Novel format) and discovering new perspectives.

However, I agree with you that the tone of the discussion deteriorated in the last several posts. What I would do in a situation like this is leave the topic locked for a week so that people can calm down, then unlock it again--but remind everyone to keep the tone civil and constructive. (I moderate a few forums and Googlegroups, so I sympathize with you. :)

I don't intend to make any more people angry (it was never my intention in the first place, and if I started sounding more aggressive in my recent posts, it was in response to triggers such as "having a massive hard-on" or "sea-lioning"; still, I'm genuinely sorry that I rose to the bait--I should have known better :( ). My only intention is what I wrote in my last post:

"next week, I'll only add the "comparison table" [between kinetic novels and electronic comic books] I mentioned in Post 50--if no-one else beats me to it"

Afterwards, I'm going to respond only to people who maintain a civil and constructive tone; and only if I have anything new to contribute.

Does this solution (or something similar) work for you?

However you choose to resolve the issue, please ignore my request to revoke my Librarian status. I'll keep contributing to Goodreads. The fact that you immediately addressed my concerns was indication enough that you care for your members, and I deeply appreciate that.

Thank you,
Kalin

P.S. As for visual novels themselves, I'm sure that the moment someone who has read enough of them joins your team, you'll have another hard look at GR's official stance. Until then, I shall simply wait. :)

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Tried,
I have tried...

Hi Kalin,
Thanks for getting back to me! Unfortunately we have decided not to re-open that discussion as it has served its purpose. Opinions on both sides have been heard, and we do not plan to change our policy at this time.

I'm very glad to hear that you'll be staying on as a Librarian! We greatly appreciate the work you and others put into Goodreads. Please let me know if you have any further feedback on your experience.

Best,
Emily

Hi Emily!

My point was that I would like to keep receiving feedback from more people about visual novels, interactive fiction (which was never once mentioned by anybody but me--should I open a new topic for it?), and any other "grey-area" formats. Please note how people like Randy (post 38) and Lewis (post 40) contributed new and constructive information when a considerable period had passed since the original post; I'd like to have an open venue for these kinds of contributions.

If you keep this topic locked, can you suggest another place where we can keep the discussion going?

Thank you,
Kalin

Hi Kalin,
You're welcome to start a new thread to discuss other formats. However, we would close any additional threads that request visual novels be allowed on Goodreads, as we have already stated our position on that issue.

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Given the current reluctance of Goodreads management to allow visual novels here, I wonder what their stance would be on "digital fiction" (as defined by this contest).

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....WTF did I just read!!! XD HOLY COW! I had no idea this was such a sore topic on goodreads! Thank you Kalin, for letting me know! This is seriously interesting!

I do agree that some of them have puzzles and clicking on the screen is used for more than just to get to the next line of the dialogue. Also, the interactive nature of VNs (if we ignore Kinetic novels) can feel like you're influencing events, just like in an actual video game. Overall, I see their point in some respects. Not everything that involves a lot of reading can be considered a "book". On top of my mind - we don't see many fanfictions listed here (although there are a few that manage to get enough recognition to even get an audiobook version).

Nevertheless... there is a reason for the word "novel" in Visual Novels. Just because something was labelled a game decades ago, and gradually evolved into something different, doesn't mean we can neglect it completely. Like I said, for me Cinderella Phenomenon was just a digital book with visual aids and sound effects. I was actually quite happy to discover it listed here, thinking Goodreads shares the same opinion.

There is one major problem though.

1. We use the definition "Visual Novels" to describe everything from Kinetic Novels to, well, actual Games. True, games that are text heavy, but they can involve anything, including fighting, levelling up certain skills, interaction choices, side quests, etc. I guess the question is - where do we draw the line? Nowadays, you can put a VN label on anything. I follow https://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/ and although the majority of the "games" that are being discussed or developed tend to be story-based solely, a few offer additional gameplay values. Just as an example:

https://akinaba.itch.io/designhero - Design Hero - a "Visual Novel" where you can modify way too many things and where you get rewarded or penalized for your decisions.
https://vizmedia.itch.io/theworldnextdoor - The World Next Door - another Visual Novel filled with many mini-games. This is an extreme example, however, it still falls into the Visual Novel Category.

2. And here lies the real problem with allowing Visual Novels on Goodreads - the term is just too broad. Yes, Cinderella Phenomenon feels like a book to me, but if it gets a pass, then who is to deny the rest of the VNs, the ones that are way too similar to actual games? And if someone DOES come up with rules and requirements, who is to police and research each VN that creates a page here? (apparently, nobody, since we have a Cinderella Phenomenon page XD)

3. One can argue that mini-games serve only to enhance the experience, that modifiying your own character is not dissimilar to certain writing techniques (second person POV), or that making decisions that infuence the plot is the same as reading those interactive game-books. But I don't think Goodreads and the majority of its members are ready to include another book "version".

4. An e-book can easily be published in physical form, almost all of the audiobooks are based on actual books. However, Visual Novels exist in their own little world. Nobody is going to publish their stories, or use the text to create an audiobook. Sure, you CAN do it, but then you'll loose all the appeal and uniqueness of the experience. Therefore nobody does it.

DAMMIT! I really wish I could disagree with Goodreads 100%, because I can see your point Kalin, and I see the amount of work people put into the creation and WRITING of these Novels. Unfortunately, if Goodreads decides to erase this page, I would completely understand why :( Even if I don't like it...

PS: Please feel free to argue your point and disagree with me XD I really enjoy discussions!

Nah, Geri, I'm done arguing. I'd rather wait for time to tell. ;-)

(And check out those two VNs you mentioned. BTW, did I tell you we started writing one several years ago?)